John Swinney has apologised for a meeting between a Holyrood cabinet secretary and an Israeli diplomat that gave the impression of a “normalisation of relations between Scotland and Israel”.
The First Minister said the meeting between external affairs secretary Angus Robertson and Israel’s deputy ambassador Daniela Grudsky two weeks ago was embarked upon “with the best of intentions”.
However, in an exclusive interview with STV political editor Colin Mackay for Scotland Tonight, he said sorry for the impression created by the discussion, which faced a huge backlash including from members of the SNP.
Swinney said: “I thought the opportunity was there for us to set out directly to a representative of the Israeli government our opposition to what Israel is doing in Gaza – that is what I thought was important and that is what Angus Robertson thought was important.
“What I accept is the way the meeting has emerged – and it looks like there is an almost normalisation of relations between Scotland and Israel – is not the way it should look and I’m sorry how that looks and that’s what Angus Robertson has said today.
“He’s apologised for the impression that has been created by that discussion but fundamentally the discussion was about putting to the Israeli government the opposition we feel to their activities in Gaza.
“I accept the way in which the meeting comes across – as an illustration of a normalisation of relations between Scotland and Israel – is not what should be the case.”
X/@DanielaGrudskyEarlier on Monday, Robertson said his meeting with Grudsky should have been limited to the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and an end to the “appalling loss of life in the region”.
He apologised for those limits not having been enforced and said further meeting invitations would not be accepted.
Swinney said he understood the anger among SNP party members at the meeting taking place but doesn’t believe Robertson should resign.
He said: “We’ve got to accept that some things are embarked upon with the best of intentions and the best of intentions here was to set out the opposition of the Scottish Government to the approach being taken by Israel in the conflict in Gaza.
“I think it’s important that we have to confront a government that is acting in a way that we fundamentally disagree with. I think it’s important that is said directly to that government.
“It is important that we do that so Israel hears loud and clear that what they are doing – from the perspective of the Scottish Government – is wholly unacceptable.”
The SNP’s Dalkeith branch has reportedly submitted a motion of censure against Robertson ahead of the party conference in Edinburgh starting at the end of the month.
“I don’t think motions of that type should be taken to the party conference,” said Swinney. “It’s up to me to decide who is in the government and that’s an issue for me to consider.
“I’m all for the party discussing and debating openly the key policy questions of the day and indeed the conference agenda has been structured at my request to make sure that party members can have an open opportunity to contribute, first of all to a review of the election campaign and then to input into our direction of policy on a whole host of areas.”
SNP MSP John Mason, who backed the decision to hold the meeting, had the whip removed over comments he made about Gaza.
On Friday, Mason posted a tweet saying: “If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have killed 10 times as many.”
Swinney told Scotland Tonight: “We have taken action to withdraw the whip from John Mason for the statement that he made because I just cannot have the Scottish National Party associated with that kind of remark.
“I think it’s a deeply damaging remark and I won’t have the Scottish National Party associated with it. I want to have people express their point of view within the Scottish National Party but it has to be done in a fashion that is respectful to the views and perspectives of others within the party, and also the values of the party.”
The US, Egypt and Qatar have spent months trying to broker an agreement to the conflict in Gaza, with the talks repeatedly stalling.
The war began on October 7 when Hamas-led militants broke into Israel, killing around 1,200 people, mostly civilians, and abducting around 250 others.
Of those, about 110 are still believed to be in Gaza, though Israeli authorities say around a third are dead. More than 100 hostages were released in November during a weeklong cease-fire.
Israel’s counterattack in Gaza has killed more than 40,000 Palestinians, according to local health authorities, and devastated much of the territory.
General election
Getty ImagesThe SNP now only has nine MPs at Westminster after a catastrophic general election result in July.
The party won a clear majority of seats in Scotland at each of the 2015, 2017 and 2019 elections, and in 2015 – a year after the Scottish referendum – it came close to a clean sweep, picking up 56 out of 59.
But it has now been reduced to single figures in the House of Commons, on a par with its performance at elections in the 1990s and 2000s.
Swinney said: “There’s probably two principal factors that have affected our performance. First of all was the overwhelming sense in the election, which was crystal clear, that people wanted to get the Tories out and they alighted on the Labour Party has the most effective way of doing that.
“That wasn’t unique to Scotland, that was commonplace right across the United Kingdom.
“The second issue was, to coin a phrase, the SNP has not had its troubles to seek, both in terms of the way the party is perceived and some of the internal disunity that we’ve experienced, and also some issues in relation to the performance of the government.
“My leadership is about remedying that, facing up to that openly and honestly and in dialogue with the party membership, and making sure that I lead a government that delivers for the people of Scotland.
“I accepted the morning after the election, unreservedly, responsibility for the election result.
“It was on me, I’m the leader of the party, I don’t duck my responsibilities, so I accept that and I’m now working with the party to build from that, recognising we’ve got to rebuild trust with the electorate.”
Winter fuel
Swinney challenged the deputy prime minister last week over the means-testing of winter fuel payments – as he conceded “tens of thousands” of pensioners in Scotland will be impacted.
In the wake of the UK Government’s decision to only award the winter fuel payment to pensioners in receipt of certain benefits, ministers at Holyrood said the loss of £160m cash as a result meant their replacement for the benefit – the pension age winter heating payment – would also have to be means tested.
STV NewsThe First Minister raised the issue as he held talks with Angela Rayner in Edinburgh last Thursday.
He told Scotland Tonight: “Throughout the election campaign, I warned about the situation with the public finances. I was told by the Labour leader (Sir Keir Starmer) there would be no austerity under a Labour government.
“He said ‘read my lips, no austerity under Labour’. Well, we’re getting austerity under Labour because Labour have made a fundamental mistake of accepting the same fiscal rules as the Conservatives.
“The finance secretary (Shona Robison) will make a statement to parliament in the first week back, which will set out some of the spending cuts we’re going to have to make.
“We’ll have to make some spending reductions because we are waiting to see what some of the consequential announcements are from the UK Government, but we will have to make cuts to the effect of hundreds of millions of pounds because of the pressure on the public finances, because of the cost of pay deals, because of the effect of inflation on our public finances.”
Independence
STV NewsSwinney say he wants to see independence “as quickly as I possibly can” but conceded the recent general election result means the party has “to revisit how we argue and how put forward independence”.
He said: “Independence to me is the solution to many of the challenges that we face today. If you look at the budgetary crisis, that situation has unfolded because the UK Government has adopted the same fiscal rules as the outgoing, discredited Conservatives.
“That’s a hugely damaging approach to the public finances and to our public services, I want to see that remedied as quickly as possible.
“The answer to that challenge in my view is to have the independent powers of a normal government that would allow us to take a different stance on many of these fiscal questions and invest in our public services because I accept that our public services desperately need greater investment than they are getting just now.
“What I’m going to do is I’m going to work with my party and with wider Scotland to articulate the arguments for independence, as to how independence will transform the life chances of people in Scotland and ensure people in Scotland have the opportunity to move to independence.”
Insight Colin Mackay Political Editor
The Scottish Parliament is set up for the Festival of Politics – but there’s not so much of a festival feeling in the SNP as fury over Angus Robertson’s meeting with the Israeli deputy ambassador.
While I was waiting to interview the First Minister in Bute House on Monday afternoon, Robertson put out a statement apologising for not making it clear that he challenged Daniela Grudsk on the war and humanitarian crisis in Gaza when they met last week.
The impression was that it had been a routine meeting – the deputy ambassador said it was about technology, culture and renewable energy.
That’s what sparked the fury in the SNP with MSPs and senior figures attacking the meeting and calling for Robertson to be sacked.
There is no sacking or resignation – and no more meetings with the Israelis – but this could still be uncomfortable for the leadership at the SNP conference at the end of this month.
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